Evolution, Fact or fiction?

[sbs]

Yes yes the great debat of weither or not Evolution exists. Now before we begin I myself once and still do excell in science and I have read the Darwin theory of Evolution. I have to say it is blown WAY out of proportion, the original theory stats that a mamal and/or animal will, over a course of time change and adapt in order to survive. Now a days it's blown out of context with the theory that we came from monkies. That I honestly do not beleive and it's becuase of this. This one simple question:

What made the life in the sea decid, "Hey I want to walk on land?" Then what made those sea living creatures say, "Hey I want to be a dinosuar?" Sure alot of theorist will pass it off as a mutant or dormant gene that suddenly activated but then if that was the case then what made that certain genenome stop?

IF fish or sea life became land based mamals and then qoute/unqoute "Evolve", why can't they still do it to this day? If man came from Apes, then why is it that to this day that suddenly, humans are humans and monkies are monkies? Why aren't there apes suddenly walking up right and becoming man?

It all boils down to this; Evolution- Fact or Fiction?

[Lady Thorn]

Oh deary deary me. Someone had to start this, hm?

Evolution is, as far as I'm concerned, fact. Human beings are descended from the family hominidae along with the other great apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees, and we came to that through the process of evolution, which began with single-celled organisms and continues to this day. This is one of the subjects upon which I have no middle ground.

What made the life in the sea decid, "Hey I want to walk on land?" Then what made those sea living creatures say, "Hey I want to be a dinosuar?"

Evolution is not a process towards anything. There is no conscious decision. Life in the sea walked on land because, for some reason, some were born with the capability to survive short periods there. They then found this advantageous, perhaps for food or escaping predation, and so those with this capability survived to reproduce, meaning the ability was passed on, increasing its incidence within the population until they could all move on land.

Every little change is random. Mutation in the genes produces infinite variety. Some variations are bad, and die out because they mean those in possession of them are incapable of surviving. Some variations are good, and allow those in possession of them to better survive in their environment, which better allows the genes for these variations to be passed on and so the species slowly gains the ability or variation more and more. Thus, we have evolution.

Evolution happens all the time. There is no reason to it, it is just caused by the fact that, when animals reproduce, their is a random alignment of the genes, allowing for a new combination in the offspring. That, and mutation of DNA.

Sure alot of theorist will pass it off as a mutant or dormant gene that suddenly activated but then if that was the case then what made that certain genenome stop?

Ouch. This is a hard question to answer because you're mixing your science. Hurm.
Basically, we are all being constantly subject to radiation. It is all around. This means that sometimes, genes mutate. This will cause a change... sometimes good, sometimes bad. If it's good and useful, it means the animal lives longer, and is more likely to mate and pass the good change on. If it is bad, the animal is less likely to mate and pass it on, so the mutant gene will not become part of most of the species. It's not a switch on or off, it's a slow and constant process.

IF fish or sea life became land based mamals and then qoute/unqoute "Evolve", why can't they still do it to this day? If man came from Apes, then why is it that to this day that suddenly, humans are humans and monkies are monkies? Why aren't there apes suddenly walking up right and becoming man?

We are still evolving. Darwin observed evolution of finches in his work. The only reason it doesn't look like anything's evolving now is because evolution is such a slow process. It takes hundreds and thousands of years... millions. Human being took millenia to become what they are now. Apes are evolving too, but by whatever luck or chance, they are evolving differently because they did not inherit the first mutation that took what was to become us away from what was to become them. Everything evolves, from bacteria to plants to the most complex animals. The evidence for it is in the world around us, if we know to look. To deny it is to deny the obvious, blatant and clear.

[sbs]

First allow me to state... thank you for the pwnage. and now I come back with this. I'm looking at the evolution theory through not only a logical angle but also the scientific and other angles such as time periods, eviorments durring said time periods that these "evolutions accured" and how that now suddenly something was the shizat back then is now suddenly a sudden slow pregressive ordeal much like going to chruch. (Sorry i do NOT like sitting through chruch, did it once and I will NEVER do it agian.)

I mean, let's start from the begining shall we? Evolutionists state from an ungodly almost microscopic thing within a rich blackness there was suddenly the big bang in which preasure from this small freaking thing sudden exploded out releasing gases and energy which came to become out universe.

Ok, that's understandable...

Then within this now seemingly endless unviverse which sprung out from a small thing that wouldn't ever be found within the nights sky even by the strongest telecope, galixies grew and with them came our galexy and thus our planet.

This is all evolutions within the unviverse and our planet. So yeah all of this makes sense to a degree but this is where it gets complicated.

Comets collided with earth and gases surrounded our planet creating our atmosphere and our oceans. easily explaining where that came from. But then let's skip maybe oh say a couple million years, where there was suddenly bacteria and singled-cell orignisms within the water. Now how did they get there?

Now I can understand that bascteria through asexual repuduction, manifestation, assimilation, and mutation that Single celled Orginisms, (SCO's) and bacteria can evovle into something more. But it doesn't explain how from those SCO's, suddenly came life in the oceans, then life on land.

Now you could pass of a simple anwser of radiation upon living orginisms effected their DNA in a case to cuase evolution however there is one big hole. The enviorment of the Prehistoric time frame in which this happened.

Paleotologist and those who study the prehistoric envoirment, state that the world's atmosphere was a much denser thing than it is now. And the atosphere of those times would block out most radiation.

Now there is no doubt that what little radiation could filter though would have an adverse effects of vegitation and terrian. Thus over a period of time the mutations within the vegitation transfered over into the oceans and acumiliated into the sea life. and then ovr course of generations allow them to finally step on land.

However this is where it gets extremley diffuclt to beleive Evolutionist's theories, the late Cretasious(Sp?) Period of the Dinosuar era when the great extinction happened. According to this event, NOTHING survived. and then suddenly small mamals such as rats and etc suddenly emerged? From what I ask? and then suddenly... mamals, messazoric(sp?) Era man, Prehistoric man, and now man? makes absolutley no sense to my eyes in a scientific stand point.

[Lady Thorn]

I mean, let's start from the begining shall we? Evolutionists state from an ungodly almost microscopic thing within a rich blackness there was suddenly the big bang in which preasure from this small freaking thing sudden exploded out releasing gases and energy which came to become out universe.

No. This is physics. Evolution is Biology. Big Bang Theory belongs in the other debate.

Comets collided with earth and gases surrounded our planet creating our atmosphere and our oceans. easily explaining where that came from. But then let's skip maybe oh say a couple million years, where there was suddenly bacteria and singled-cell orignisms within the water. Now how did they get there?

Not sure it exactly happened like that, but that's irrelevant. You've just asked one of the fundamental questions of Biology and, honestly, they don't know. There are theories (many involving viruses, which are part alive and part not) but no one can pick one for certain on our current knowledge.

Now I can understand that bascteria through asexual repuduction, manifestation, assimilation, and mutation that Single celled Orginisms, (SCO's) and bacteria can evovle into something more. But it doesn't explain how from those SCO's, suddenly came life in the oceans, then life on land.

No, no, NO! You're missing the point. There was no "suddenly" anything. It is believed that several SCOs, as you call them, managed to function as a single organism, or perhaps that a virus and an SCO worked out some form of symbiosis, allowing a multicellular organism to form. From this, we can slowly, slowly, over millions of years, reach more complex organisms like the dinosaurs.

Which leads me on to this:

However this is where it gets extremley diffuclt to beleive Evolutionist's theories, the late Cretasious(Sp?) Period of the Dinosuar era when the great extinction happened. According to this event, NOTHING survived. and then suddenly small mamals such as rats and etc suddenly emerged? From what I ask? and then suddenly... mamals, messazoric(sp?) Era man, Prehistoric man, and now man? makes absolutley no sense to my eyes in a scientific stand point.

No!! No dinosaurs survived. Small creatures which were to become mammals did survive. They survived because they were small and could hide, or were better adapted to the new environment, or by some fluke were not affected. We have record of these species existing alongside the dinosaurs. Whatever wiped out their reptilian neighbours didn't get them, simply. One theory suggests that a drop in temperature killed the dinosaurs, which were cold-blooded and so would have been greatly affected by this temperature change, while the warm-blooded mammal-things could survive, because they were warm-blooded.
Whatever books you've been reading are either crud or very unhelpful.
Those mammal-things slowly evolved to become the diverse fauna of today, and some other survivors become other creatures we know (crocodiles/alligators/turtles are all descendants of existing dinosaur-age creatures). They became apes, which became Australopithecus, which became all the other stages of human down to the current Homo sapiens.

Paleotologist and those who study the prehistoric envoirment, state that the world's atmosphere was a much denser thing than it is now. And the atosphere of those times would block out most radiation.

Radiation doesn't just come from the sun. The earth is itself radioactive. There are rocks everywhere containing small traces of radioactive substances. How else do we get Uranium and other such things but from the earth? The atmosphere had nothing to do with it. Sure it was different. I know this. The oxygen concentration was much higher, allowing development of giant insects which now cannot survive since spiracles as an oxygen exchange pathway are only efficient up to a certain partial pressure of oxygen. Or, in earlier times, the oxygen concentration was very low indeed, and so plants and their photosynthesis allowed an atmosphere to be created wherein aerobically respiring organisms could evolve. And the ozone layer was indeed intact back then, and so solar radiation was lower. But ambient radiation, which is still present today and which still affects us, was still around. And I only offered radiation as one source of mutation. Mutation is dependent on several genetic factors, some of which simply occur naturally. Mendel's two laws display these quite nicely:

1) Law of Independent Assortment. I already mentioned this, though not by name, in my first post.
2) The Law of Segregation - this states that the members of each pair of alleles separate when gametes are formed. A gamete will receive one allele or the other. This allows for different combinations to occur than are found in parents, allowing change and evolution.

There is also the process of Crossing Over, which changes DNA coding in a random and semi-unchartable way.

[†The Blood Countess†]

Wow. Er. Okay. I started a debate on this but it seems I should say my piece ^^;

What I find interesting is when people say NO dinosaurs survived. Well...*points to crocociles, snakes and other reptlies* they ARE dinosaurs. They just NEVER stop growing. Thousands of years ago, the atmosphere was RICH in oxygen so they could grow, grow, grow...grow...^^; so yeah. The larger dinosaurs? I believed they went extinct after the flood.

What I believe is that a long time ago there was a firmanent in the heavens, a large band of water one mile deep so to speak. This kept the atmosphere at a perfect temperature, increased pressure and kept great amounts of oxygen in. You notice that dinosaurs had small nostrils? Well...why have big nostrils when you can take in large amounts of air thanks to the pressure in the atomsphere? Other than the flood, I believe that is what killed off the dinosaurs not a large metorite because life cannot descend from nothing (many say that metorite killed all life so...life cannot descend from nothing >>)

I'm sure some people would wonder how dinos fit on the ark. They were BABEHS . Wittle...cute...non dangerous babies...until they grew up D: oh my...poor Noah had his hands full >_>;

Oh and there is proof out there for a flood. They found seashells atop mount everest and...oh gosh the list is pretty long so if you want it? I'll give it to you, loves

And...I found this interesting...there were dinosaur footprints found with human footprints within them D8 and this scientist decided, "You know what? I'm destroying this because it goes against my beliefs." And guess what? He destroyed it. v_v so I'm rather pissed off about that. Honestly. I'm open minded why can't other scientists be open minded? ¬¬ There is nothing wrong with acknowledging this didn't happen by chance *shrugs* quite a few scientists don't believe in evolution but pretend to do so because it's all they've got. Just thought I'd mention that.

So yeah....I hope all of that wasn't TOO unorganized D8

[Lady Thorn]

What I believe is that a long time ago there was a firmanent in the heavens, a large band of water one mile deep so to speak. This kept the atmosphere at a perfect temperature, increased pressure and kept great amounts of oxygen in. You notice that dinosaurs had small nostrils? Well...why have big nostrils when you can take in large amounts of air thanks to the pressure in the atomsphere?

I'm sorry Amoura, I do respect your opinions on the whole... but yeesh. A great big floating-in-the-air watery thing? That's like the land-bridges...

Yes, they found shells in Mount Everest and such... but if one studies rocks, one learns that sedimentary rocks often contain fossils and shells. I have no idea what sort of rock Everest is made of, but if they found shells and such, they are probably ancient relics of a higher water level at a time before Everest was the height it currently is. Yes, there is evidence of a flood in the history of the earth, but that doesn't mean the Bible/Koran/Satanic Scriptures/Ancient Greeks/Babylonians or anybody else was right about their god(s). It just means there was a flood, and that it got written into early scripture because people read religious meaning into natural occurrences. That's how people created gods in the first place. We fear what we do not understand, so we ascribe characteristics to its nature that we can understand so that we can learn not to fear it. That's why most early religions have deities representing features of nature. You fear the sea as a fishing folk, so you pray to the sea-god for calm weather. A god can be angry and vengeful, or calm and forgiving, and so we can try to understand him, but the sea is subject to the will of no one, and has only the reason of nature behind it, and that is a very difficult thing for a person to understand. Even staunch atheists can think to see the hand of Fate and Luck behind what they do and see.
Speaking of...
A question, Amoura. How come, if your god is the god, His religion didn't come until much later than the polytheist pantheons? I've been meaning to ask someone this for ages.

Right, footprints inside footprints.
Why can't scientists be open-minded? That's a harsh question. It's like if I were to say "Why can't Christians be intelligent?" (which I wouldn't do). Just because some scientists are unbending in the face of opposition, doesn't mean they all are, just as a few idiots don't make all Christians stupid.
Also... citation needed please. This interests me.
But yes. Footprints do not necessarily happen at the same time. I'd need to know more about this case, but surely it could be that a human years later left his mark in something which had already existed for a very long time? Just a theory, and as I say, I'd need to know more to comment properly.

Other than the flood, I believe that is what killed off the dinosaurs not a large metorite because life cannot descend from nothing (many say that metorite killed all life so...life cannot descend from nothing >>)

Meteor didn't necessarily kill everything. If it had a serious climactic or meteorological effect, it would only have killed most cold-blooded organisms, and some others, as well as those killed by the impact. If it killed enough, dinosaurs could have reached an evolutionary bottle-neck and died out very quickly, with the few survivors being what we now know as the aforementioned alligators etc. and such.

[devildriver]

There is a reason that Evolution is still just a theory and not a law of nature. It can not be proven, so I just leave my argument at that.

[Lady Thorn]

Good grief people. READ THE RULES.

This is your first time, Straker, so you don't get a warning level, but next time:

- Three sentence minimum.

- No posting a little "this is my opinion and I'm going now", because that's not a debate. That's a post. If we cannot question you and you us, what's the point at all?

Also:

It cannot be proven because of how science works. Things are very easy to disprove and very hard to prove. This has been in another debate, I think. I'll go look for it in a minute. But no one can disprove Darwinism as of yet, and by disprove, I mean with a logical and reasoned argument, with evidence and proof. We can, however, find evidence against the Biblical version of events.

[†The Blood Countess†]

Yeah...^^; I know it sounds ridiculous Lady Thorn...ehehe...

And, I'll rephrase that. Many scientists refuse to open their minds to other possiblities (I open my mind, even if it means doubting my beliefs *shrugs* I'm not saying they are unintelligent)

I'll find something about this when I can ^^ alright?

[Lady Thorn]

And yes, some scientists can be very close-minded, but they are people like everyone else, and so just as flawed. Though they operate on a perfect logic (ok, mathematicians do), they themselves are far away indeed. Like everyone. Most people are quite close-minded once they reach adulthood. I do try my best, but I've questioned long enough that the beliefs I hold now are the ones I feel to be the most true as far as my knowledge can take me, and so am quite... voracious... in sharing them. Apologies for this.

And that sounds like a plan. I'm quite interested by this.

[†The Blood Countess†]

Okay. About my whole "Water in the atomosphere" theory...I thought of this suddenly.

How else would it explain the vast amounts of oxygen? There would have been more pressure in the atmosphere, the temperature constantly kept at a perfect level for vegetation. What I also noticed is this: Dinosaur nostrils are small. Why is that? If there was more pressure in the atmosphere (by the WATERY SHIELD O' DOOM...*laughs*..>>) along with the large amounts of vegetation constantly pumping oxygen into the atmosphere...it didn't take much effort for them to breathe.

After the flood? That firmanent in the heavens was gone, because it fell down to cover the earth in water. That's when the dinosaurs started going extinct.....at least that's my theory ^^

I hope this didn't sound like a bunch of words mushed together with a bruised cherry on top ;_;