Abortion

[Lady Thorn]

This morning, the radio inspired me. There was talk (as ever) about the American elections, and the respective views on abortion of both parties.

Now, my personal opinion (which is rather different from my political opinion) is pro-life. I dislike abortion, except in those cases where it is necessary, such as when the life of the mother is in danger, when the child is the result of rape or if the child is so heavily disabled/ill that its birth with have negative effects on the quality of life of the mother. This is a personal opinion. Politically, I think that abortion is a relatively good thing. Any government trying to ban it or heavily limit it is foolish to the extreme. It's just a matter of pragmatism. If people do not have the legal option of abortion, they will seek illegal methods. It is safer, in the long run, to set a sensible legal abortion limit (such as viability, the current UK limit, set at 24 weeks, I believe) rather than to try any banning.

But what does everyone else think? And am I the only person who wants to stab Sarah Palin in the face for her extremist and batty views? Would you vote or not vote for someone based on their views on abortion?

[Isi Runasimi]

I don't think President or Vice President or not, no one has or should have the ability to ban abortions. Because if someone really wanted one then they would seek illegal methods such as: coat hangers or even god forbid dumping the baby in a sewer. I'll be the first to admit, if I ever became pregant, regardless of circumstances whatever they would be and if I was forced to not terminate the baby then I would beat the shit out of it until it was dead. I wouldn't stab Palin in the face perhaps, but maybe one day her pregnant daughter would for forcing her to marry the father of the baby. I really hate the idea of voting for her and McCain, but I don't like Obama at all so I would vote for McCain and Palin, including her extremist views. I would of course be also prepared to protest the hell for pro-choice. Everyone should have the choice no matter how the baby got there.

[Lady Thorn]

Well, I was listening to a news report this morning, and there was a woman protesting outside an abortion clinic. It was her view that "all abortions" were wrong and against God's will and so she would be glad when (please note the when) Palin and McCain got into power so they would stop the murder of babies. You'll be swapping places then, if Ms. Mad gets her way. It worries me how extreme some people can be on this. As far as I'm concerned, there is no definitive black and white answer. One can never simply say "No abortions", because there are circumstances in which one must abort a foetus, and one can never say "abortions whenever you want them", because there has to be a limit. It would, in my eyes, be murder to allow abortion up until full term, because then the baby would be able to survive. Abortion up until the point of viability... yes, that I can allow. That makes sense... scary people seem not to have thought of this though... (sorry, the woman they interviewed for that little excerpt was a VERY SCARY lady... very very extremist indeed).

[Isi Runasimi]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying go out and have an abortion if you're seven months pregnant and change your mind about wanting a baby. I forgot what the limit is in the U.S., the amount of weeks, 24 weeks in some states and not allowed after a third trimester in others according to this *source*. But I was basically trying to say within legal limit of said supposed fetus people should be allowed abortions. Yes, you and I as well as everyone else need to be worried about how extreme some people can be. Let us be thankful or hopeful that that woman has not blown up any abortion clinic or family planning center, or whatever they are all called where you go and get an abortion. I think when dealing with abortions it is easier to think of the fetus as a disposable thing and not as a future life. Of course I'm disgusted by the women who have five abortions or more and then because of scarring can never have children when they want and then cry and bitch and moan over it. It is called a condom. I suppose this brings over excuse to ban abortions but I think not. I really could never support a stupid little baby because I hate children and I am a very selfish person. The world will be a very wrong world if abortions are banned even in cases of incest and rape.

[aiden]

Oct 16, 2008 9:29:23 GMT -5 Lady Thorn said:

But what does everyone else think? And am I the only person who wants to stab Sarah Palin in the face for her extremist and batty views? Would you vote or not vote for someone based on their views on abortion?

I thought you were a pacifist???


My personal opinion is pretty much a grey area. I am pro-choice, because yes, there are definately circumstances where abortion is not only ok, but also the only logical thing to do like you all mentioned before. But IF IT WAS ME in the case of acidentally getting pregant somehow even though I'm on birth control, unless I was raped, I would most likely keep the baby. Or if it was dangerous etc. But I also believe that it's so easy to AVOID getting pregnant these days, that a lot of women use it as a way to opt out of responsability for thier actions.

I mean seriously, I've known about condoms since I was in elementary school, and other forms of birth control since I was in middle school. I've been on birth control since I was 16 years old, and in free clinics like Planned Parenthood as far as I know, if you're over 14 you don't have to have a parent come in with you, and they let you get birth control and don't tell your parents. It's not that hard to prevent pregnancy. So yeah, I say before you even get to the point (if you just didn't use protection) of getting an abortion, you should be dropped into a barrell of birth control pamphlets so you know what the hell is going on. But yeah....yay pro-choice for the instances where it is actually important and not just some stupid kid being an idiot.

[Lady Thorn]

I am a pacifist. I would never actually stab her in the face. But some people just annoy me a lot, and so I am feeling a great desire to do so, though I would never act upon it. Complicated morals... but it means I won't go to prison for aggravated assault or somesuch.

Good point about all the birth control stuff, I meant to ask how that went in the US. Here in the UK, we are deluged with the stuff from the age of about twelve onwards. We all know pretty early on that there are ways of not getting pregnant. But, many people (often those who are pro-life and scary with it (some people can be non-scary pro-life... well... I hope I'm not scary)), think this is wrong too. They think sex should only equal making babies. This... irritates me. If that is their view, I'm fine to leave them to it, but they should not try to force that on young people. Teenagers are going to have sex, no matter how much they're told not to, so letting them know what options are available is sensible, and it prevents them going out later to get abortions when they didn't know where to get condoms. But abortions still need to be legal, even if everyone has universal access to all the birth control you could want. I figure, it's better to be pro-life, like myself, but there to be access to a legal and safe method of abortion, than to be forced one day to a back alley and a man with a metal coathanger.

But of course, in the grey area... do you think people should have to see someone, a doctor, say, before they get an abortion. My opinion goes with how it used to be here. Before an abortion, a woman had to see two doctors (no parents needed) and state their reason why they wanted an abortion. The doctors couldn't stop them from having it, couldn't tell their parents, but it meant that the woman had to examine her reasons for ending the life of her child, and this is always a good thing. Abortion simply for the sake of silliness and carelessness... no... I don't think that's right. Plus, many women go on later to regret their actions, and it's better to try to stop that before it even starts, I think.

[Isi Runasimi]

Sorry but I have to disagree. Children are having sex younger and younger and are not being taught sex ed at all. I moved around alot and attended nearly six or eight high schools and I'd only ever been in one sex ed class. They didn't say anything about condoms just that not having sex was the best way to not get pregnant. I can remember being in 9th grade and not knowing how the hell to have sex.

Me: We had sex ed today
Mom: Okay
Me -sits on couch- But I'm confused, how does a person have sex?
Mom: You're not old enough to know that!
Me: -goes away-

[Yay for upper class neighborhoods.]

I remember sex ed class, I thought it was disgusting though I also think blood is gross and germs. I remember the teacher went over some diseases or something and then I was trying to remember each letter answer when we took the test in a few minutes. I think I've been scarred from that class for life but that's off topic.

Young people are really stupid, especially when it comes to sex. They're not going to seek out a free clinic mostly because they have no idea where one is located or because they're afraid that their parents will be told. Girls, young girls, are going to have sex because everyone is doing it, because they're being pushed by their boyfriends and are afraid he will dump her if she doesn't have sex with him, also the belief that you can not get pregnant the first time, also that you don't need a condom if he pulls out. (I should ask my ex lab partner why she got pregnant at 16 because her son is 10 years old.)

Why should someone have to have a baby simply because they made one mistake?

The people who harbor the belief that abortion is wrong are also people who value religion highly.

Religion has no say in law so religious feelings about abortion should be void, if that makes sense? ? ..

[Samael]

In our sex ed class they were verrrrrry detailed in telling us what we needed to know. They told us were to get FREE condoms and FREE birthcontrol. They acutally gave us a long list of directions to places were we can get the stuff to have 'safe sex' they even gave us addresses and phone numbers to these places. Like places to get tested for sexual dieaseaes for free with out your parents knowing and all that goodie goodie stuff.

We acutally had two professional people come into our school for two weeks in health class and explain all this to us. They showed us pictures of penis lice, herpies, genital warts, god the images were horrifying but I just wanted you all to know that everyone in the high school is required to take a health class which is half a semester or they can't graduate out of high school, although that doesn't stop them from not using condoms and birth control cause I can name three people off the top of my head who are preggers in my school.

[Lady Thorn]

Ok... that sucks, Isi. We had classes for yeeeeeears, with all the gory (I mean gory) details. I know none of my friends even considered sex un-icky for years after that. And I haven't seen anyone pregnant in my school... ever? I don't think ever. So I think it works. If you get kids young enough, I mean.

Why should someone have to have a baby simply because they made one mistake?

Because sometimes, people should accept responsibility for their actions. They are committing a murder, at least in my eyes (and that's not a religious view, it's my personal morals based on what I know and such), and so shouldn't be allowed to take such a decision lightly. No one knows what or who the child might become, so why should its life be forfeit for the silly mistakes of its mother, or father? I understand that there are some circumstances in which it would be harmful not to allow the abortion, either physically or psychologically damaging, but I do honestly believe that a child should be saved in all those instances in which it is possible to do so. But, I am aware that people would resort to backstreet options, and so am happy that the law stands at the point of viability, though I would advise anyone in that situation to consider adoption before they consider abortion.

[Lady Thorn]

So you would want the baby to live even if it meant the mother's life was forfeit?? Even if it would cause a great deal of psychological harm upon its birth? Even if it would be so severely handicapped that it would die soon after birth, putting the mother through nine months of trauma and ick and then the pain of labour for nothing, not to mention the attachment she would form with the baby, only to have it die soon after? Surely you don't believe that the mother should give up her life for the child in circumstances where that choice must be made? Is this a religious or a personal view?

Also, as I said to other people: coming in, stating an opinion, then saying "I'm done here" is not conducive to a good debate. I would suggest people only post if they are willing to back up their arguments when the inevitable contrary view surfaces. Otherwise it's not a debate, it's just a list of views. Please.

[†The Blood Countess†]

I'm just voicing my opinion, Lady Thorn. But looks like I shouldn't have >>;

*deletes her post*

[Isi Runasimi]

Side note. My sex ed was a one day class taugt by like the gym teacher.

Because sometimes, people should accept responsibility for their actions.

Yes people should accept responsibility for their actions but can you honestly expect a fourteen year old girl to give up her life to bear a child? In some schools down south pregnant teenagers drop out or are forced to attend not regular school but a pregnant girl school, *source*.

While these schools were formed in the '60s when pregnant girls were being forced out of ordinary schools, obviously Title IX made that practice illegal, although the schools could still provide alternative education for pregnant girls who chose it. It seems that given the inferior education the schools were providing, however, they were not complying with the spirit of Title IX.

Pregnant girls have continued to face discrimination in New York and elsewhere, including exclusion from programs like the National Honor Society, and it is important for pregnant students and their families to understand that this is illegal.

And just because moving the girls to another school is illegal still doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It really does happen where if you're pregnant you're forced to give up your education. Education is the most important thing in life, it really is.

They are committing a murder, at least in my eyes[...]

And then maybe the girl is one month pregnant, two months pregnant. Is the fetus really a life then? It all goes to the old when does a fetus become a life debate. My opinion is that when it can survive on its own without the mother. It's not really a baby then it's a bloby thing.

No one knows what or who the child might become, so why should its life be forfeit for the silly mistakes of its mother, or father?

That is another age old thing. I heard somewhere that a woman had like seventeen children and then all of them had problems and then the question asked should she get an abortion? And then it would say like you just killed Beethoven or Motzhart or something.

Sorry but no one knows what the child may become. In reality most children will become thieves, drug addicts, prostitutes and convicts. I have never had to live paycheck to paycheck and I don't see how anyone could make it, especially with a young child. You are what you make yourself out to be.

If I was pregnant right now and got an abortion I couldn't go. "HA, there goes another doctor." Because you are what you make of yourself. You have to put your heart and soul into what you do. You aren't born great you are made great.

I understand that there are some circumstances in which it would be harmful not to allow the abortion, either physically or psychologically damaging, but I do honestly believe that a child should be saved in all those instances in which it is possible to do so.

And I believe that a woman should have the choice to choose whether or not she wants to keep the child regardless of any circumstance.

Abortion must be kept legal because then people would resort to traveling to other countries and states to get one done. They would turn into any old back alley and get a coat hanger job done. Who is to say that a woman might not just drink to the death of her child to alcoholic beverages? Do we really need more people to be taken care of by the government with tax monies?

We know you were voicing your opinion Amoura but it gets a bit dreadfully irritating when people just post what they wish and then vanish leaving people without means to rebuttal against said person's opinions.

[aiden]

We had sex ed for like 2 weeks my freshman year of high school, in our health class, which is taught by the biggest stupid bitch ever, who ran herself over WITH HER OWN CAR twice in less and a month. But I digress.

Even though we had sex ed in my school that was MANDATORY, I personally know 4 girls that got pregnant while in high school, but they all kept thier babies. That's not counting girls I don't know and wether they had abortions or whatever.

I think part of sex ed should be up to the parent as well. For instance Isi, if my mom would have only said that to me, I would have gone around to anyone I knew that had sex and found out how it worked. Lucky for me though, due to a child molester living in my neighborhood when I was a little girl and having to be questioned by the police about if I had come into contact with him, I have known EXACTLY what sex is since I was 3 years old. Technicality wise anyway.

I had a friend in high school, who by the time she was 18 years old, all her mother told her about sex at all was, and I quote, 'A penis is what determines if you're a boy or a girl.' This same girl to this day, 20 years old and will not say the word penis out loud.

I know this is a little off topic of the abortion thing, but my point is that I think part of the reason kids go out and make stupid mistakes like getting pregnant because they didn't use a form of birth control, is because of both schools and families not being open to giving out knowledge to kids. And in the long run that creates more problems because it gives dumb kids the wrong idea about sex and they end up getting pregnant and getting abortions because of it.

((Maybe I was just in the smart crowd lol, about 70% of my sexually active friends in high school were on birth control or used condoms every time they had sex.))

[The Janitor]

Oct 18, 2008 13:01:57 GMT -5 Lady Thorn said:

Because sometimes, people should accept responsibility for their actions.

Basically: "You pay, you play." "You make your bed, now you sleep in it."

Oct 18, 2008 13:01:57 GMT -5 Lady Thorn said:

And am I the only person who wants to stab Sarah Palin in the face for her extremist and batty views?

Would you vote or not vote for someone based on their views on abortion?

Maybe, but you don't want to hear about a few naughty thoughts involving Ms. Palin. Especially how when I see how that skirt dresses that booty Caress Me Down starts playing in my head and I think "Drill baby! Drill! Ah! Gusher!"

Nope. Abortion is a non-issue to me. However I do find some views of the pro-choice and the fact that said issue touches down into bigotry disgusting.

Concerning half the stuff said about young people and sex. I'd just like to say it's hard for me not to support mandatory sterilization after puberty. At least until personal responsibility and common sense become common once again. However I don't want anything sharp near my dangly bits.

I do remember going through sex ed in middle school. It was in the afternoon and the gym coach was going over it. I picked a seat in the far right corner of the room and decided to catch a few Zs.

[Lady Thorn]

Oct 24, 2008 1:20:43 GMT -5 The Janitor said:

Maybe, but you don't want to hear about a few naughty thoughts involving Ms. Palin. Especially how when I see how that skirt dresses that booty Caress Me Down starts playing in my head and I think "Drill baby! Drill! Ah! Gusher!"

Nope. Abortion is a non-issue to me. However I do find some views of the pro-life and the fact that said issue touches down into bigotry disgusting.

1) You disturb me a little Janitor...

2) Bigotry, how so? I'm pro-life, and I do not see how my views are intolerant, any of them. Then again, I'm not extremist, so perhaps I lack the nutty streak. And how are the pro-life views disgusting? I am aware I'm in a minority on this one, but how is it disgusting to not want the unborn to die? I understand and accept that there are cases when abortion is necessary and even logical, the right thing to do, but I fail to see how the alternative in the non-vital cases falls into the category of disgusting.

Everyone says their gym teachers took them for sex-ed. Is there some extra capacity of US gym teachers that I fail to see? We always got taught by a Nurse or a Biology teacher, or both, in some cases.